Group XP Hatelist Clarification

Written by Feldon on . Posted in Game Updates & Maintenance

So it seems like every year, I mistranscribe at least one thing said in the panels. At the frenetic pace required to cover the content, it’s inevitable, but it still leads to grief for developers and I apologize for that.

In this case, with the upcoming Group XP changes (which I am very excited about), somehow I got the impression that if you were not on the hate list (you had not either damaged the mob or healed or buffed an ally) you would get NO xp in the group. This couldn’t be further from the truth.

From Terrogaunt on the EQ2 Forums:

Hey guys. Just chiming in to address confusion on this.

You will still get experience if you’re not on the hatelist.

You just won’t get as much as you would have if you were able to contribute. The change makes it so you get experience to that of soloing if you are able to contribute to the battle. If not, you will still get the same amount (that of a N-sized group).

So in essence, this just means for you that you are getting the chance at even more exp in situations where you’re able to help kill the mob.

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Comments (53)

  • Lempo of Everfrost

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    This is long overdue, but they are making it to where it penalizes legitimate play in the sense that you may not always get your bonus. Yes you get EXP as if you soloed the mob. There are many better ways to implement this, a debuff that is on you with a 10-15 second timer that refreshes anytime you generate hate on a mob, if you have that debuff then you get the full ‘bonus’ experience.

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    I’m not sure how it penalizes legitimate gameplay if being on the hate list means you automatically get the bonus. In a legitimate group everyone will be on the hate list for one reason or another I would think.

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    Thanks for the clarification Feldon. I also want to note that on iPhones posting in mobile format works like a champ.

    Reply

  • Stryker

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    All this is, is another thing specifically towards power levers so now they get lower exp….. Yet again solving a problem that no one even gives a crap about except the devs, instead of fixing actual problems that would benefit everyone….

    NO WONDER THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE GAMES DROP SO LOW THAT IT TAKE 3 HOURS JUST TO FIND A GROUP

    Reply

    • Feldon

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      All this is, is another thing specifically towards power levers so now they get lower exp….. Yet again solving a problem that no one even gives a crap about except the devs, instead of fixing actual problems that would benefit everyone….

      NO WONDER THE POPULATION OF THE ENTIRE GAMES DROP SO LOW THAT IT TAKE 3 HOURS JUST TO FIND A GROUP

      If I roll a tank, how the hell am I supposed to learn how to play it if nobody wants to group until level 92 and then I am expected to know all the zones, all the encounters, how to tank, turn mobs, snap agro, etc. etc. as if I have been playing for 6 months?

      EQ2 is two games right now. A solo grindfest from 1-89 which does not prepare you or teach you. And then 90-92 when you are expected to be a freaking savant and expert at your character. If you don’t see that as extremely unhealthy and discouraging for new players, then I don’t know what to tell you. AFK powerleveling through 1-89 and not learning your class is killing the game.

      If you want new players to L2P, then the game has to support it. Right now, it STRONGLY discourages it.

      Reply

  • Moose

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    Sweet

    Reply

  • Loch

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    THIS is more like it. I’m really looking forward to this change.

    I’m a bit confused as to how anyone will be “penalized” when MORE experience is earned on top of what is already being given.

    You’re really reaching to find fault here.

    Reply

  • Greygore

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    It penalizes legitimate power leveling!!! Now I have to contribute on my alt also, and that’s just not acceptable ;)

    *yes I’m joking*

    Reply

  • Anaogi

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    And if you get status effected through most of the fight…?

    Reply

  • foodcity

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    exactly, Anaogi… will my monk get any AA xp when he’s stunned for must of the time during the second last fight in PR??

    Reply

  • Madcat

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    ALL this nice xp, the 2 account free 280 AA, and the xp bonus from group will have an negative impact on the collectible that give less and less xp. And most of time not even usefull reward.

    Just a small warning

    Reply

  • Lempo of Everfrost

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    @Loch

    You just won’t get as much as you would have if you were able to contribute. The change makes it so you get experience to that of soloing if you are able to contribute to the battle. If not, you will still get the same amount (that of a N-sized group).

    So in essence, this just means for you that you are getting the chance at even more exp in situations where you’re able to help kill the mob.

    Where do you see in here that more is already going to be given?
    If you get say an incurable arcane early in a pull, where a group of adds gets one shotted by an AE auto, blue AOE etc then you are not going to be on the hate list for that encounter and you will get the same XP that you get on live right now.

    The bolded part says it all, the encounters themselves can have control effects that prevent you from getting the bonus on that encounter or the next one. If you have a control effect that you got from a mob that is not linked in an encounter and are UNABLE to contribute then you will be penalized by not getting the bonus. I don’t understand how difficult that is for you to understand. It isn’t reaching, not in the least.

    They want to stop AFK leveling, I get that I have no problem with that, the solution to that is to strictly enforce the EULA and ban people when caught, not to implement a half-baked solution that in the end is going to adversely affect far more people.

    Reply

  • Madcat

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    i agree with lempo, it will reward class able to high dps class or able to one shot and other will get robed

    Reply

  • Madcat

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    without punish people with ban, a rollback of the toon in xp is enough perhaps reseted to level 1 :P

    Reply

  • camelotcrusade

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    Interesting. XP is the least valuable reward to me, though, so I don’t think it will change how I play much. There are plenty of ways to get XP and besides, I mostly play my maxed out toons. Now, if my reward was an increased chance to get loot I could use, then I would care more about exactly how this was implemented.

    Reply

  • Atan

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    My disappointment remains as if I’m PLing a toon in some random dungeon and see 3 people trying to play there as well, I still am penalized for inviting them to run in my group.

    So, they really failed to solve the problem.

    Reply

  • Madcat

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    my SK or my Beastlord will get a boost, but i think i will hate more my coercer with her 1 sec casting spells, a full group in CD is not always easy to hit thing they die so quickly ;)

    I feel they dont took enough time for realy think to this problem and just solved it with something that will lead to more problem (like usual :P)

    Anyway i dont feel concerned, my mains are SK and Beastlord so …. lol. Quick hard hitter take adventage your again favorised ;)

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. In a group situation how often would someone get CC’d into not being able to get on the hate list? One ranged attack, one taunt and you’re in. If you’re not doung this already on pulls then adjust to it. I’m sure there will be freak instances where you don’t get the bonus but it will be so small in comparison to what you’re getting overall I don’t see why there’s fussing over it.

    Reply

  • Chaldeus

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    Wow. Just wow. PLing will not change in the least. You will still get the same exp you have always received. The change is that if you are not just a tag-a-long, you will get exp as if you solo’d the mob. Oh, and in the rare occasion where you are somehow CC’d for the entire fight…guess what? You are on the hate list. Stop complaining. If you stand there doing nothing, you should not get a bonus for it.

    Reply

  • Feldon

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    All I care about is, if I group up with some friends and even if we don’t have a ridiculously overpowered character pulling us along, as long as after an hour or two of gameplay I have a boatload of AAs or levels, who cares exactly what the math was?

    The problem is, if I group up and run low level dungeons, my XP is cut in HALF or worse. Why would anyone group?

    Group XP Split made sense in 2004. It doesn’t make sense now.

    Reply

  • Loch

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    @ Lempo

    Not getting a BONUS is NOT THE SAME as being penalized.

    From what this is saying, if you stand around and do NOTHING, you’ll get the same experience as you used to in a group with that many players. The change is simple. It’s awarding new BONUS experience for those who contribute.

    See these words? BONUS EXPERIENCE? As in, more than you do now?

    If two people group together now, they gain LESS experience together than they would separately on the same MOBS.

    With this change, if two people group together, and they both contribute, they will gain experience at the rate they would if they were each soloing independently. If a few issues arise with adds and you don’t make the hatelist here and there, then you get the OLD RATE OF GROUP EXPERIENCE.

    Whether or not it will solve any PLing or AFK issues isn’t what I’m talking about. They added a BONUS to grouping that should always have been there. That is a good thing for everyone.

    It is definitely reaching if you’re looking to complain about the POSSIBILITY of not getting every last bit of extra experience every moment that you’re grouped. You’re going to gain more experience in groups with this.

    How can you complain about getting MORE?

    Reply

  • Lempo of Everfrost

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    @Aelious -
    You are not looking at it right, you are talking about the hate list of one mob. If the mobs are not linked each mob is going to have its own hatelist. If you hit one mob then an AE autoattack + AOE takes out 4 mobs in a pull that is not linked. You will get the bonus for the one mob the others you will still get the EXP from the XP xplit that they are trying to do away with.
    It is not going to be only freak instances and ‘rare occasions’.

    The reason that there is fussing over it is it is broken as it currently stands. They have been living the mantra “ah it’s close enough”, “meh that should do it, most won’t even notice” and crap like that for over 2 years.

    @Chaldeus If you get a CC at the end of a fight then on the next pull the mob dies before it expires you will not be on the hate list and you will be penalized by not getting the bonus.

    Reply

    • Feldon

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      Lempo,

      Ok, you make a good point. Maybe they need to have a buff on a grouped character that if you are on the hatelist of a mob, then you get XP bonus for up to 1 minute and then it drops. So as long as you are on the hatelist of mobs at least once a minute, you stay on the list.

      Again it doesn’t have to be perfect, as long as you are getting the full XP 95% of the time.

      Reply

  • Lempo of Everfrost

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    @Loch

    From what this is saying, if you stand around and do NOTHING, you’ll get the same experience as you used to in a group with that many players. The change is simple. It’s awarding new BONUS experience for those who contribute.

    It is awarding bonus experience to those who are ABLE to contribute, the game has mechanics that can prevent that and prevent the players from getting the bonus. Wait and see, it is poorly implemented and the scenarios I provided that are completely legit and will happen with frequency will cause more confusion and grief with specific classes, and newer people that are slower to react. It doesn’t matter to me, I’ll just drop it and wait for the confusion and frustration then I’ll just gloat. Did they ever get all the issues with the PQ’s fixed for people being denied rights to the chest? NO. And you are so convinced they got it right this time… ok then good luck with that.

    Reply

  • Landiin

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    as long as you have any sort of buff on the person doing the killing your going to be on the hate list. So quit QQ and acting like you will not get the bonus exp if the mob is one-shotted. Nothing has changed for the AFK power leveler except if they buff the power leveler they will get bonus exp.

    Reply

  • Chaldeus

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    I don’t see a way this could possibly be construed as not better than the current group exp model. It will make everyone gain more experience faster, as long as they are doing something. If they miss the bonus from time to time…wtf ever. It’s STILL gonna be faster than the current system. If you are in a zone killing mobs that get 1 shotted…guess what? You are being PL’d anyway.

    Reply

  • Anaogi

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    So long as we don’t get situations like the round-robin Charlie Foxtrot the PQs descended into, this should be a major improvement.

    Reply

  • Elderon

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    I think Monopoly had a bad design flaw when they only made one race car… wasn’t it crappy when you were the 2nd one to pick? Of COURSE your friend was going to pick the race car first… and what did you get? The Shoe.

    I think alot of games have trivial problems, but i don’t think this will impact xp gain in major way to discourage players. New Players (are there any?) will only see it as normal progression through levels and not give it much thought. As for myself, i’m not getting out the calculator and geeking it up everytime i get a stun from a mob. Oh well, Freedom of Mind works wonders.

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    Lempo

    I see what you mean now with unchained mobs, a short term buff would make a lot of sense. As others have pointed out I wonder if the overlap between class buffs and effects would cover these situational deficiencies?

    If not than there is a reason to say something as the intended effects are not happening and possible on a regular basis. I love the idea though, more reasons to group are always welcome.

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    Actually, IMHO maybe they could scale difficulty so there is never a worry about group mates one shotting mobs before you get on the hate list :)

    Reply

  • Atan

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    @Aelious scaling difficulty that high would mean content would be too hard for a sizeable segment of the population.

    They need to just take a different approach to this than hate list.

    Reply

  • Aelious

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    @Atan

    You’re probably right but maybe scale mentored down players then. If you’re in a group situation it seems funny that a stun would cause you not to get on the hate list and kills would be that fast lol.

    Reply

  • Madcat

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    if the real goal is AFK, just remove all bonus xp after 2 min without cast (generate agro) and problem is solved. (if the real problem is the AI for mercenary and pet they give us)

    Reply

  • striinger

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    THIS is the best thing people can find to whine about?! I mean…REALLY?! Wow the community has dipped really deep into the piddly shet bucket (at least some).

    Feldon…thank you for selflessly (mostly) serving our whining, internally referenced, self entitled community. I wonder if people are truly just trolling or if EQ2 players never unanimously love anything. It’s funny..I play less now than ever but seem to enjoy my time a bit more…perspective.

    Reply

    • Feldon

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      With Group XP changes, I’m excited about leveling my Mystic. I was dreading it before. There are some details to work out on who gets credit for what but the broad strokes should be, every zone in EQ2 should give pretty decent bang for the buck. Of course if you want the fastest, you’ll head to Blackburrow, Firemyst, etc.

      Public Quests were awesome at launch, and then all this participation detection code was kinda forced into it. Sometimes you can listen to the wrong player feedback. EQ2 also has a different Lead Designer since a lot of those decisions were made.

      Reply

  • striinger

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    Also, I noticed the ninja fix to mobile posting a whole back and forgot to say thanks…so thanks! :-)
    It works in Android!

    Reply

  • Trueflight

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    Guild Wars 2 has a nifty little buff item that turns into its own mini game. You get 50% bonus xp, as long as you make a kill within 30 seconds. Kill or contribute to a kill and the timer resets and you get to keep going. Now 30 seconds is a bit harsh of a timer, but for that buff it makes it interesting and fun.
    Make it 60-120 seconds or so, like Feldon was saying, and it would be a lot more fitting for EQ2′s gameplay.

    I think a big issue with EQ2 is that mentored down players are way too overpowered. This opens the door for power leveling abuse. They really need to look at whatever ratios that they use when mentoring and drop them down a few notches. In the least, its no fun mentoring down to go out adventuring with a friend or new player, only to one shot nearly everything in the zone :(
    GW2 seems to have a pretty balanced formula for altering players stats when they are mentored down to make them on par with actual characers of that level

    Reply

  • Anaogi

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    I think a big issue with EQ2 is that mentored down players are way too overpowered.

    Mostly it’s mentored down cap level characters that are that way. That’s a direct consequence of squeezing the equivalent of multiple tiers into existing levels, starting with TSO. Plus, the cap level toon is more likely to have fully improved CAs/spells, excellent gear, more AAs…in other words, you’re working from an entirely different baseline, so of course they seem like demigods once mentored or chrono’d.

    Reply

    • Feldon

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      I think a big issue with EQ2 is that mentored down players are way too overpowered.

      Mostly it’s mentored down cap level characters that are that way. That’s a direct consequence of squeezing the equivalent of multiple tiers into existing levels, starting with TSO. Plus, the cap level toon is more likely to have fully improved CAs/spells, excellent gear, more AAs…in other words, you’re working from an entirely different baseline, so of course they seem like demigods once mentored or chrono’d.

      This.

      And this is why making scaling content is pretty much impossible. At level 80, a raid force might have done 80-100k DPS. At level 92, an individual player can do 500k DPS. That’s a 1200% power growth in 12 levels.

      Reply

  • Nrgy

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    @Lempo — Did they ever get all the issues with the PQ’s fixed for people being denied rights to the chest? NO
    I am not suprised in the least that Lempo was the one that brought up the PQ Hate list mechanic, but only that he waited 3 or 4 replies before he tossed it all back into your faces. SOE and Hate list mechanics is a freakng mess and remains to be so to this day.

    @ Landiin (This is incorrect) — as long as you have any sort of buff on the person doing the killing your going to be on the hate list.
    To get on to a hate list you need to do some type of agressive act. Putting a health or stat buff on another player pre-pull will not get you on the list.

    @ Loch — See these words? BONUS EXPERIENCE? As in, more than you do now?
    This was defined as Bonus XP, not Bonus XP… Encounter Bonus XP is what you’re losing if you’re not on the hate list. You will -NOT- get the “OLD RATE OF GROUP EXPERIENCE”, you will get less and from where I live less equates to a penalty.

    @ Feldon — “I think a big issue with EQ2 is that mentored down players are way too overpowered.” This. And this is why making scaling content is pretty much impossible.
    Mentoring is one of the ONLY two things EQ2 offers that other more modern games does not. Effecting mentoring in a negative way only means that people will have less reason not to play modern games with modern graphics and modern threading engines. I could careless whether SOE’s mentoring alogrithms are bad, but that’s becasue they can’t do simple math. If they could then there would be less isses overall.

    SOE is playing with fire and they are getting ready to sell gasoline on the SC Marketplace.

    Reply

  • Nrgy

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    And to be clear .. if this Hate List crap includes proximity, then SOE really doesn’t know wtf they are doing. You all do realize that just being within aggro range (proximity) of a mob will add a player to the hate list … so what and where is the deterrent for the PL’ers again exactly?

    Reply

  • Grumble69

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    I like the group xp change. But they still need to go through all the classes and see how this change impacts each one, particularly at lower levels of the game. Not everyone has a buff or an ae. Some are primarily single target classes like assassins. We can dance around the semantics of bonus vs penalty all day long. But the net result is you can have classes that are fully participating, however they’re not getting the same xp as the rest of their group.

    Now whether they’ve got different programmers than the PQ guys is not really the point. They have the option of keeping it really simple–not putting any “participatory checks” in the code. Everybody is guaranteed to get the xp they are due. If folks want to PL or AFK grind, so be it. But SOE is choosing to go after that small minority of people and risk impacting a much higher number of legitimate gamers. And the last thing we want is SOE dicking around for the next 3 months with their code when they could have just taken the easier path.

    That’s my concern.

    Reply

  • Grumble69

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    And I guess the root of my concern has absolutely nothing to do with group xp. The issue is that the EQ2 devs do not have a good track record of fixing broke mechanics promptly. And I just don’t have a lot of faith that they’ll get this right when the expansion is released.

    Reply

  • camelotcrusade

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    RE mentoring, I’ve been playing Guild Wars 2 while I wait for this expac. They use vicious mentored down code… you are better than you are without it, but you aren’t a god of war. You will not be soloing any dungeons, that’s for sure.

    It’s neat to see another game borrow a good idea from EQ2… and fix some of the problems in translation, too.

    Reply

  • Loch

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    @Nrgy

    You’re coming into this conversation with information that wasn’t available at the time we all posted. At that point, there was no clarification made about what they were doing with encounter xp, which changes everything.

    Reply

  • Atan

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    @NRGY

    Being in proximity does not add you to the hate list. Being in proximity to an unengaged mob will put you on the hate list, but once the mob is engaged it will not add you to the hate list unless all his current targets are dead, the mob aoe’s and hits you, or you somehow affect the mob or the persons it is already engaged with.

    Reply

  • Enrico

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    As a healer, I’ve had issues with this sort of mechanic going back forever. Most notably on eq1 faction grinds. I expect that it will be easier for bots to get on the hate list than real low level players. But it should work flawlessly on a typical grind with players of similar gear, level and skill, if it reliably includes the healer.

    Mentoring will be impacted, but there are ways to deal with it. The mentor will just have to make bigger pulls and wait longer before dropping everything with one attack.

    I would not object to a more fair mentoring scheme. The god-like quality might be more due to having all equipment slots filled out and adorned, but I doubt it. I think mentors really are unfairly overpowered, and it makes it less fun for the lower level player, if they expect to make any contribution whatsoever.

    Reply

  • Atan

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    No you are correct, it is the equipment stats that make mentoring so OP. The mentored player has more crit/potency/critbonus/etc than someone of that level could possibly ever have.

    When mentoring was first introduced, gearflation wasn’t nearly as bad and while a mentored toon was more powerful than a non-mentored one, they were not the god like creatures of today.

    But this is one of those things that you can’t take away from a game after you’ve let it be for this long.

    Reply

  • striinger

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    @mentoring
    Cap effective stats be level (like harvesting skill, for example plus set a maximum level (maybe lower for mentored toons) for an area our instance.

    To borrow the GW2 references above, that’s one of the key ways the ensure power is in line; they automatically mentor you depending on the level of the area our boss mob AND the number of other players in proximity. The fact that you still get okay XP when doing this and a (reduced) chance at gear for your level means that playing lower content is worth doing. That stated, GW2 has good solo, excellent PQ, and mediocre (at best) group/raid game play. EQ2 still rules it there.

    Reply

  • Onorem

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    I’m inclined to say that something else that would help low level grouping would be to remove the godlike status of mentored characters. It’s not fun running a dungeon as the mentor or the mentoree atm. It’s just mind-numbing boring.

    Reply

  • armawk

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    I am understanding that the loss of the bonus xp for mentored characters will effectively mean that a mentored character will receive possibly as little as half the total XP they currently get from dungeons.

    That is a big change to hide behind ‘there is a bit of bonus xp you currently get that you wont get if mentored or if you dont hit them’

    Reply

  • Swagems

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    Like this is that big of a deal I was able to lvl a toone from 92 to 95
    In like 5 hrs with no xp pots just vit

    Reply

  • Paddyo

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    I mentored to 80 on a toon and then powerleveled that toon with another one mentored to 80 in Chelsith: On the beta server, yesterday (friday, 10/26/12). There was no double xp running on the server, the toon being powerleveled had 120% max level bonuses, plus 110% potion, plus 200% vitality, and -11% for being mentored down. Pulling mobs and not engaging netted 2007 experience, or 7% of an AA point. Pulling a mob and engaging netted 2714 experience, or 10% of an AA point. The mechanic is clearly in place, so these are solid results/numbers you can debate. This isn’t going to kill AFK powerleveling like alot of Chicken Littles are running around screaming; it actually makes powerleveling an attended character faster than ever.

    Reply

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