Dev Comments: the “Shard Grind” and Dungeon Finder
This week we’ve seen the introduction of the Dungeon Finder, and what may be the end of “Shards” (Void Shards, Marks of Manaar, and Primal Velium Shards), at least for acquiring sets of armor.
Primal Velium Shards
First, let’s tackle the removal of Primal Velium Shards from the “shard armor” equation. The EQ2 team continues the minimalist approach to discussing and announcing mechanics changes, with this reactionary explanation from Gninja:
The Thurgadin, Ry’gorr, and Drunder armor sets are direct upgrades to each other. They should scale in difficulty to obtain and that difficulty was off. That was one of the reasons the Thurgadin armor was rarely purchased. If its easier to obtain better armor somewhere else then why get that armor to begin with? With these changes the lower tier armors are a bit easier to obtain making the chase be more for the Drunder armor sets rather than having to do the shard grind repeated for each tier.
Some players were confused by the phrasing of the Test Notes and thought that a new set of Drunder armor was being introduced and added to Drunder bosses. Gninja cleared up that misconception in the same thread:
No new token is being added for the Drunder armor. It hasn’t changed from the way you would have gotten it before this patch. We made a couple changes to the Drunder loot as well where as when you break down the armor drops within Drunder you now receive a large amount of the ore needed for the combines as well as making the same individual armor pieces drop from creatures within the Drunder towers.
The armor made from the ores now has a chance of dropping from creatures within the drunder zones. You should only need to do the ore crafting for pieces you get unlucky in finding naturally.
Drunder armor is being added directly to certain named bosses within the three Drunder instances. However you will still be able to acquire Drunder armor the old-fashioned way, with Primal Velium Shards and Drunder ores (acquired by hiring a crafter to break down unwanted LEGENDARY and FABLED drops from the three Drunder instances). The amount of ore generated for each breakdown has now been sextupled since the launch of Velious, so this may remain a viable alternative to waiting until your armor piece drops from Drunder.
“Shard” armor became the foundation of heroic armor sets in The Shadow Odyssey, with Tier 1 and Tier 2 armor acquired with 38 and 112 shards respectively if you befriended a crafter. 38 shards is a pretty good number to get a full set of heroic gear especially if you do the “Daily Double” and thus earned 4 shards for running one dungeon.
In Sentinel’s Fate, “Mark” armor became optional and expensive, so most ignored it. Destiny of Velious re-established the importance of Shard armor, but introduced it at a very high price (210 shards for a set of Ry’Gorr), and only gradually lowered it to 120 shards. Even with the Dominance quest, 120 shards is a lot, especially for players with many alts.
Dungeon Finder
There has been no lack of commentary on the EQ2 forums about the Dungeon Finder. EQ2 devs have been quick to tackle problems which have appeared since its Thursday introduction. First, some players have selected the “Random” option to gain the +25% XP bonus, only to drop and do other things. EverQuest Franchise Executive Producer Dave “SmokeJumper” Georgeson indicated that they’re going to nip this in the bud:
The people dropping constantly to get the +25% bonus in the dungeon that they want is a problem. We’ll work on a fix. It shouldn’t be too difficult.
When asked if the 25% XP bonus won’t just create a “Golden Path” effect, SmokeJumper had this response:
Here’s the theory:
- People that volunteer for “Random” are basically saying “Yes, I’m happy to get +25% XP bonus for allowing the software to decide where I go so that I can be used to fill groups, wherever needed.”
- We then look at the list of dungeons and step through it one at a time.
- When a dungeon’s turn comes around, we look to see if anyone is specifically queued for that dungeon. If so, we pad out that group (if necessary) from the Random pool of players. Then we go to the next dungeon.
- If the next dungeon has no one queued in it, then we try to fill it with a group pulled entirely from the Random pool.
In this way, there should never be a “golden path” effect, like you mention. The peope that queue for a specific dungeon get longer queue times because they have to wait until it’s their dungeon’s “turn” again before any attempt to fill that group occurs.
Make sense? If you queue “Random”, your destinations really should be “random”.
Another identified issue has been group leaders clicking Fortify and then manually inviting members to the group, resulting in a situation where the group is full (6 players) and a 7th player is stuck in a situation where they join and then are auto-kicked from the group, but can’t get out of the group to Queue again. SmokeJumper responded to criticism about Dungeon Finder’s testing:
DF was on the Test server for three weeks. We recorded all feedback received, implemented most of it, and fixed all known issues.
This issue appears to be a problem caused when the group leader within a DF instance extends a manual invite while the Reinforce button is activated, thus allowing a state where someone accepts the sixth position just after a manual invite is accepted.
We’ll seal it off quickly. It’s unfortunate that it didn’t occur during the three weeks of public testing. But we’re nailing it down now.
SmokeJumper has posted a partial list of some of the new features coming to Dungeon Finder in addition to various fixes already on Test:
We’ve gathered feedback and identified a few key elements we want to change to respond to that feedback:
- Soon, you’ll be able to “vote to change” the loot options within a DF instance (sort of like how you can vote to kick now).
- We’re going to add a UI element to the DF interface so you can get green/yellow/red lights to signify the numbers of each archetype queueing in your level range (how many healers, how many tanks, etc.) They won’t be exact numbers, but a red light will mean there aren’t many players queued for that archetype.
- There will be sub-category breaks in the level 90 dungeon list to make it easier to select the dungeons you want.
- We’re going to implement a time penalty for folks that get a DF invite, but then decide to ditch it because they don’t want to go to that dungeon. (If you want to avoid this penalty, then queue for specific dungeons instead of using “Random” and you’ll never see this time penalty.)
We’ve also fixed a couple of bugs encountered (such as the PvP change implemented early today, and the “group is full” bug that happens when someone manually invites while also using the Reinforce button).
We’ll keep watching and strengthening the feature. We’re glad most of you like it so far, and it will get better soon (next week).
Commenting on the “smarts” of the Dungeon Finder Matchmaker, the algorithm which picks players to put in each group, Gninja alluded to how it works:
The way it works is, dungeons pre-80 are setup to require 1 fighter, 1 priest, anyX4. Dungeons 80-85 or 80-90 are setup as 1 fighter, 1 priest, dps class X2, any X2. Level 90 velious dungeons are setup as 1 fighter, 1 priest, dps x2, mage, any. This is configurable on our end so if you see a specific zone making odd group setups let us know!
Regarding scaling zones, Gninja again:
Sabaron’s Palace is setup as a 80-90 zone so it uses the tank, healer, anyx4. So, I could see where [problems] might happen. We are looking at it and will see what we can do with it.
A level 81 healer joined the scaling Silent City zone with five other level 90 players. As a result, the zone “scaled” to level 88 and they were unable to do the amount of healing necessary to run a successful zone. SmokeJumper addressed this:
The new Silent City dynamic dungeon scales to the level of your highest player. If more of those players had been in your level range (80-84), you would have been totally fine.
We may have to consider removing the dynamic dungeons from the DF lists if that continues to be a prevalent problem. (Or come up with some other solution.) We’ll see.
If scaling zones are removed (Befallen 1-3 are already missing), it could be a very short list of Dungeons.
Tags: dungeon finder
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Comments (23)
Isest
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Concerning the comments about drunder armor. Giving us better access to ry’gor still does not fix the reason why folks are not running drunder. That reason is simple, folks dont run it as its to hard, and to many folks fail at it.
Trying to force us into drunder zones is really not funny, and I have to wonder why the want to force their playbase into zones that are not fun for them.
As for DF nobody is using it. The problems I have seen have been many. Like a totaly unbalanced team. I got one group that had 4 tanks, 2 scouts and no healer. I got one group that had 4 scouts 1 healer and one caster. I got in one group that the leader booted 3 folks so he could get his guild mates in. So now its the same old thing rad chat is still full of folks looking to run zones. DF is a disaster, inits current form.
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Cameron
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did you join DF as “Random” ? then dont cry when you get “Random”
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Kwill
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I agree, so far we don’t have a lot of early adopters of the dungeons on my server, especially for the pre-90 levels. I noticed last night some people were asking for a group in chat, and also noting they were also queued in the DF. The question still remains, why aren’t people embracing this idea? Unless people queue for it, it won’t gain enough momentum to be successful. The chatter was that you needed peak times to get enough partcipants to make it work, so I am not sure if there was more activity last night or not versus yesterday for off peak hours, where there was not much at all. Maybe they need more incentives to get people to try it?
One of my guild mates was talking about the DF putting him into a fail group, as Feldon reported, so it may be that the mechanics need to get better before people use it.
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Necromancer
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Fire smokejumper already.
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kralus
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I’m not liking what SJ has brought to EQ, and I fear that EQ3 will be a pile of shit because of his direction.
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Kassandra
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In all honesty, until the DF is cross server it won’t necessarily be better than chat channels. I have yet to try the DF, and there are exploits. If they are fixed the feature has a chance, if they aren’t then it’ll die into obscurity.
There’ll always be fail groups. There’s no way around it because people don’t know how to play their class. Whether we will see tanks in full PvP gear or rogues gemmed to int like in WoW will take time.
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Rocky
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If they wanted a smoother progression curve, then they should remove the shard cost from only Thurgadin armor. So that way you have to work a little harder each set of gear. (Example: pq stuff is handed to you, thurgadin you would need some faction, ry’gor you need shards and gems, and drunder stuff would need ore)
I think SJ is doing a fine job, except for the big mistakes like ignoring the testers.
As far as the DF it works fine on Antonia Bayle. I’ve done two temple groups the last two days, and the group setup was good, and we did the place with ease.
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Inque
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This comment scares me. He says the dungeons scales to the highest player (90 in this case) then says if more lower levels had been in the group then everything would have been fine. How on earth would more lower levels make it fine if the dungeon scales to the highest player?
Looks like Smokie doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He has stated that the dungeon scales to the highest, not the average. I wonder what else he’s clueless about?
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Feldon
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Inque,
Pretty sure he misspoke and meant that the new Silent City, like all scaling dungeons, scales to the average level of the group.
The level 81 healer with five level 90 characters reported that the mobs were level 89, with bosses level 91. This suggests the zone had set itself to 88, which would be in line with the average between (90+90+90+90+90+81)/6.
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Swagems
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I think getting rid of shards is just dumbing down the game even more ,I think they should maybe make it so it take less shards and maybe make it so you can trade in you old shards from the early expansion.
also if you have a bunch of Raid shards you could use them to get gear or trade them in.
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Striinger
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They may have to set up a formula for each dungeon to make the group matching work properly (or at least give the ability for devs to override the “standard” for a particular dungeon). There is nothing above that suggests they’ll ensure you have a chanter, for example. There are zones, however, where I doubt any PUG could succeed without a chanter.
More and more I’m seeing this as a travel short cut for full/partial groups…or a way to get groups with your totally crappy alt with no gear, at least at level 90.
FYI: discovered a DF feature that may keep me from using it even for groups I already have. Had a group or 5, went into ascent…got up to first named and 2 people went LD. DF automatically added another person to the group. Since we’d already started the shard quest, they couldn’t finish it, and when the LD people came back they were back in group. I’m not sure when DF will add people without hitting the reinforce button…but it appears it’s not really in the hands of the group leader…especially if the leader changes due to a link death.
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Green Armadillo
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Vote to change loot options is a terrible ideas. Four guildies who queue together (one of each archetype, for the sake of argument) can change the loot rule to master loot and keep the loots to themselves. The two random players can either accept this or eat a time penalty plus be sent back to the back of the queue.
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Inque
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You must have met a lot of asshats in-game to come up with that idea Green Armadillo, but I suppose in theory it could happen.
Just make loot NBG Leg+ and most would be happy.
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Striinger
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I agree that scenario would be incredibly rare GA , bordering on theoretical. I’m sure a friend of a guild friend had it happen, but I know a guy whose cousin saw Bigfoot while swimming with a mermaid named Nannette.
To the reason DF still misses the mark for me…
I had a group of 4 running a zone when a power blip took out 2 group members. We had already started getting quest updates. As soon as the tions disappeared additional players started being joined to the tions(now) duo.
Only 1 stayed so the LD couple got back in. The guy who stayed wasn’t a loot whore but was geared in crap. A couple more attempts yielded similar results; crap gear, no AA. Luckily the zones were so easy that we didn’t need the others. it felt more like a forced PLing group than an adventure group.
I tried again with my alt that has crap gear and AA poor and it was painful to even do Pools. No comms or coordination and I’m unsure that the tank had a taunt. XP wasn’t stellar either especially when debt factors in and shards are much of a motivator.
Without a whitelist and blacklist to help get better players, at the min, what is the reason for using DF? NBG is incredibly annoying and instant transport is great, but random group addition randomly in the zone makes it a fail for me.
Cross server is more likely to dig up fail groups.
Okay…next useless feature, please…(DYOD?)
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Striinger
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I had a quick thought how they may get more people to use DF…
Disable /invite
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Feldon
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I had a quick thought how to make EQ2 terrible.
Force player behavior.
Your group leader needs to click the button “Reinforcing…” and tell the Dungeon Finder to stop trying to find people to add to the group.
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Panther
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To be honest i was hesitant about the DF that it would indeed put you into fail grps for some of the slightly harder instances.
Yes i got into a few fail grps where they could not even get past the 3rd named in Ascent (overseer).
But a few instances ran well, and i enjoyed the random element. Meet new players, enjoy the excitement of a grp member getting “uber” loot out of ascent. It some of the more seasoned players get out of the “only grp with people i know” rut then we might see a great mix of old and new knowledge.
But realise what you signed up for Random grp will be random – Enjoy it for the experience.
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Leeb
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Here’s the problems I see coming a mile away on the DF. So their “fix” is to put a penalty on people who leave group or decline. I’d far prefer to see people drop group if they are ill-prepared for the zone selected for them. Say a tank with 22K hp is selected for ToRZ, along with a healer with say 160 AAs? Yeah I want them to decline, and don’t think they should be penalized for doing so. Its not their fault the game thinks they’re ready.
Tweaks I’d make to DF.
Add an AA or HP restriction on certain zones,
Or when selecting the “fighter” have a certain criteria for that and the second fighter that might not be well suited for the tank role still be allowed to join to fill the “any” slot.
With Ry’gorr gear now becoming redily available this will only compound this issue. AAs matter too not just crit mit when it comes to healing or using your special abilities to survive the zones. And this is going to hurt people who want/need the extra exp not the people who already have max AAs.
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Raenarys
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I’m concerned about the DF not allowing for proper group makeup. At least have a requirement of Enchanter, Bard, Healer, Tank, and DPS x2. This seems more reliable, specifically for lvl 90 zones. We all know that Dirge+Coercer = melee dps, while Troub+Illy = castie dps (with a strong need for a tank who can hold agro w/o a dirge/coercer). It might be limiting, but its the way the classes have been built. Why not put that into the dungeon finder equation?
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milliebii
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anyone else notice that bards are never ‘required’ for any dungeon at any level?
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milliebii
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not sure how Smokejumper means by the term random, but if you are assigned to groups that are partially full of players then you are less likely to be grouped for ‘unpopular’ dungeons.
While this might be a good thing it sure isnt random.
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Gettoh
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Leeb: I think the idea is that if you’re not prepared for a zone, don’t queue for it. Unfortunately, then you don’t get the 25% bonus. What’s silly is that the people who need the 25% are also going to be the people who really SHOULDN’T be queuing for 100% random DF. It’s just a dumb idea. Get rid of the 25%.
Raenarys: While I agree in theory, one of the points of DF is to get away from the mentality that you need a perfect group for every zone. You simply don’t. That said, it’s ridiculous that a brawler is considered equivalent to any other tank. Of the 4 or 5 times I’ve used DF, 3 of them ended up with a brawler tank who didn’t want to tank. Rather than selecting specific classes, further refinement to selecting a “role” needs to be made.
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Grimmond
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I think there should be a group option to allow for non-standard groups. The leader should be able to take an optional player for any slot. There are some mages that simply do not need a super tank, and some healers who can keep ANY player up. We once grouped with an SK who did not NEED any of us … he blew through the zone fggaster than we could target his mobs.
I think a setting that allows the group leader to set a min on Crit Mit, AAs and or HP would be good. There could be a button that allows a group leader to accept the defaults or tweak them. Of course tweaking them will make the DF take longer to find the matches.
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